Janice Denton, a former library staff member who came to the college in 1964 when her then-husband became Amherst's first Black faculty member; interview by Richard Fink, former professor of chemistry and dean of the faculty.
[0:00] Richard Fink: It's a great pleasure for me to have the opportunity, courtesy of the Library, to have a chat with Janice Denton today. Um, and in the cause of full disclosure, I should say that Janice and my family have been friends for 43 or 44 years. So we go way back together.
Janice Denton: [[laughs]]
[0:26] Fink: And that has its good parts and its bad parts, I suppose, in any kind of conversation like this, because I can make assumptions and she might make assumptions that may not be clear for somebody looking at this 50 years later. Um, of the people that came to Amherst College in 1964, there were 16 new faculty members. Of those 16, four remained after about eight years. That is, one came with tenure and three of us received tenure and the rest are in the great void of perhaps more remunerative occupations. But Janice came, uh, as herself and as the spouse of Professor James Denton in the mathematics department whose specialty was statistics. And came, as I hope we'll see, in a variety of roles, herself, mother, faculty wife, friend, and worker of great things in the Library. So I’d just like to say, this is very nice of you to do, Janice. And I hope that, I hope we have some fun. It won’t be surprising if we do.
[1:51] Denton: Yay, yay!
[1:55] Fink: [[laughs]] When you, uh, started out, and by that, I mean at the earliest stages--you, if I remember rightly, you were born in St. Louis, but then very rapidly moved to Montgomery, Alabama.
[2:10] Denton: Um hmm.
[2:10] Fink: When did you get to Montgomery, Alabama?
[2:14] Denton: I suppose I was two years old because my brother was born in St. Louis, also. And he's just a year younger than I am. So I think my mother had more or less ran away from home because she was pregnant. And then she went to St. Louis, and she became pregnant again. And then she ran away from St. Louis back to Montgomery. So I stayed there until I left to go into the service.
[2:52] Fink: When you were growing up in Montgomery, uh, there must have been extraordinary experiences being a Black family in Montgomery. Why don't you tell us about Bainbridge Street?
[3:10] Denton: I can come out of my front door, and I could turn left and I could go to a school one block away from me. But going to that school, I had to cross Bainbridge Street. I, but I had to turn right and go three blocks to the Booker T. Washington High School. Bainbridge Street was the divider, in a sense, of poor, or should I say, po’, white people and Jews. On one side of Bainbridge Street lived the poor white people and on this side of Bainbridge, on the right side of Bainbridge Street lived the Jews, but that was the State Capitol. So I was really within two blocks of the State Capitol, within one block of the school, but I had to walk three blocks to the Black school.
[4:29] Fink: Did you have any interaction at all with white kids?
[4:33] Denton: We had none whatsoever. We didn't play with white kids or what have you.
[4:40] Fink: So Bainbridge really was a dividing line?
[4:42] Denton: Was a divided line, but nobody ever even, as far as I know, nobody ever questioned it or what have you. And the reason I know that there was Jewish families here was my aunt. My mother's sister worked in one of their homes.
[5:03] Fink: Now, if I remember rightly, she worked in the home of a doctor Goldthwaite.
[5:09] Denton: Yes. Now that was my, uh, my--
[5:12] Fink: That was your mother’s-- aunt
[5:12] Denton: That was my, that was my grandmother's sister.
[5:16] Fink: Oh.
[5:16] Denton: And she left home to go to be a babysitter in this doctor's home. And she remained in that house all of her life until she got married. And when she became married, he purchased a house for her and that was the house that I grew--
[5:43] Fink: That you grew up in.
[5:44] Denton: -up in. Yes. And it is funny that since I've been in Amherst, I think I've told you this, that I woke up one night and said, “well, I’ll be damned. She was his child.” My mother's sister was very, very dark, but they had a very different father. But other than that, as you've seen my brother--
[6:17] Fink: Yes.
[6:18] Denton: And that there was nobody in the family that was, um, dark.
[6:27] Fink: What was it like growing up with your aunt as, in a sense, the most formative influence on you at that time?
[6:35] Denton: It was kind of mean, and I’ve thought about it more since I've been an adult, you know, think about it, think back on things, how things could have been different, but I could remember her leaving the house in the morning, and she had to leave very, very early because she had to go a distance to get to work. And she owned the house, and everybody who didn't have a place to stay would come to Aunt T’s house, which is what we called her.
[7:17] Fink: This would be people who maybe didn't have work or didn’t have a house to be in? [crosstalk]
[7:21] Denton: That’s right. Or, didn’t have, or couldn't pay their rent or what have you. They were relatives, by the way. And I don't care how late they came to that house, Aunt T would say “y’all come,” [laughs] ya know. And a place would be found for them to sleep and she would cook a meal. It didn't matter how late it was, it was a, what do you call, they call it a thrown-together meal, that’s a Southern expression. And she would, um, she had this iron flat frying pan.
[8:12] Fink: Like a griddle?
[8:13] Denton: Yes, but it was round. And she would pour boiling water, boiling and I can remember that, but I can't remember anything else about it.
[8:31] Fink: Well, it’s the imagery of the fire and the boiling water and the dark stove.
[8:33] Denton: Yes. She would pour this boiling water in this bowl of meal. Now what else was in the meal, I don't know. And she would make a ball, you know, mix it up to a ball, and then she would put it on this flat griddle and she would press it out so that it fit the griddle. Then, when it was brown on one side, she would flip it over, and then brown it on the other side. Then when she served it, it was turned out, and there were the fingerprints of her hand. And I can honestly see that today, right now, because she did it quite a few times for people. But, and it was so good.
[9:28] Fink: Yeah, I was gonna say.
[9:28] Denton: That was the thing! [laughs]
[9:30] Fink: Can you still taste it?
[9:32] Denton: It was really very, very good and I cannot for the life, and I don't think my brother who loves to cook re--, he remembers her doing this. But neither one of us can remember what, I guess because we didn't want to remember anything because we were not going to do this, you know in our lives. [crosstalk]
[9:55] Fink: Yeah. That, the “this” being, what was it that you did not want to do?
[10:01] Denton: Wake up at night, make bread for somebody in the house where everybody went so [[?]] and that’s why I left, eventually.
[10:14] Fink: How long were you there? Were you there through all of grammar school?
[10:19] Denton: Oh, all of grammar school and all through college.
[10:22] Fink: The college you went to now is Alabama State University, but would you remind us of what it was called before that? [[crosstalk]]
[10:29] Denton: That’s right. It was Alabama State Teachers College for colored people. And then he changed the name to Negroes. [laughs] Then it just became Alabama State Teachers College. And now it is Alabama State University.
[10:55] Fink: What sort of courses of study did you take?
[11:00] Denton: I was supposed to be a teacher. So I was supposed to go to school and I took the regular education courses and the practice teaching. And then uh when I taught for three years and decided that I had to leave Alabama or I would be dead, so.
[11:24] Fink: How, what was it like? I mean, was there a heightened sense of political awareness that that just came with being Black growing up in Montgomery?
[11:39] Denton: I was just frustrated, I think. And there were a number of people who were satisfied being there because it suited their purposes and their images of themselves in life. And a lot of it was because in a lot of the families of friends that I knew, there were men in the homes and my home and several other people that I knew there were no men in the home. And I've just come to this peace in my mind lately that that was great problem not that it would might not -- not that it would have been possibly much better.
[12:36] Fink: We're talking about a time as we said earlier, that is 70 years after the end of the Civil War.
[12:46] Denton: All right, the Scottsboro Boys were I think they were five of them? Black men who were caught at the wrong place at the wrong time. And they were accused of raping a white woman. And it was because they were accused-- the women were prostitutes. One of the men in the house was married. And so these Black men were out doing yard work. So uh the wife of one of these men was looking for her husband. So the women called the -- said that the Black men had raped her. Now the men were sent to jail, and they died. A couple of them died in prison. I think one might have been let free. I mean, it was -- do you remember [Roy] Wilkins?
[14:12] Fink: Sure.
[14:12] Denton: All right, all of them came, all of the big wigs of the NAACP, came down to Alabama to try to settle this this case and it was really, it was sad because they were young people, men who had no education. I don't think they had ever been to school. I would say they had never been to school because I now have a different definition of going to school and having an education. Okay? So I don't think they had ever been to school at all, you know? And they were sent to prison for raping a white, two white prostitutes.
[15:19] One has now recanted. The other one refuses to do this. But the interesting thing about it is two of those men died in prison with full blown syphilis. They did not test the white women to see if they had been raped at all. They just took their word for it. That was one of the nasty things that I remember. And I can remember at that time, my mother, my stepfather was at the house then and all of the Black men by five o'clock, they were home. Nobody was out in the street, which was really kind of interesting . Because the police would then get mad about something and go out and grab Black men, and usually were Black, poor. And we were poor. But there's a difference between poor and po’
[16:41] Fink: And you were poor--
[16:42] Denton: We were poor--
[16:45] Fink: not po’
[16:46] Denton: We were not po’ because my aunt had a home and I had clothes to wear and I went to school every day. And my brother was baptized. We were baptized at the same time. I can remember that all little Black girls wanted to have their hair straightened, and curled and Shirley Temple curls. You know, remember Shirley Temple?
[17:10] Fink: Sure.
[17:17] Denton: And they bought me a new white dress. And they curled my hair in Shirley Temple curls and they dumped me in a pool!
Fink: [[laughter]]
[17:30] Denton: I was so angry with them. When I got out of the pool, I was fighting because --- [laughter]]
[17:37] Fink: Sounds– [[crosstalk]]
[17:38] Denton: And this was right in the church! This was right -- I was so angry because my curls were gone.
[17:47] Fink: So from the Teachers College, you then went and taught for two years you said.
[17:53] Denton: Yes. And then I decided then and there that I was going to get no place. That's just what I was gonna do for the rest of my life, and that I thought that there was some other options for me. I did not have any relatives who lived in the north so to speak. So I then decided to join the service.
[18:23] Fink: Were there any other options other than teaching for young Black women --
[18:30] Denton: Nope.
[18:30] Fink: -- at that time. That was about it?
[18:31] Denton: Nope. Still is, just about. You can be, you know, but it's mostly in the Black community still, which I find it whenever I go down. I don't go now because my mother is dead. But I find that most of my friends taught schools, even when they integrated the schools, they would teach in integrated schools, but they didn't socialize with their white faculty members. And they, if you want to know a true thing, and that is how segregation is going, go to a Black church on Sunday, Or go to a white church.
[19:22] Fink: And just look around?
[19:23] Denton: And look around. Which is really rather interesting. Things are different. My friends have beautiful homes in white communities, but they don’t socialize with them. They go in, the air conditioning is on, and that’s where they stay.
[19:47] Fink: And that’s sufficient.
[19:48] Denton: Yeah.
[19:49] Fink: When you decided to leave and go into the service, how did that work? What did you, what did you do?
[19:58] Denton: I decided I would do it, but if I became an officer, if I pass a test for officer candidate school, but I have to sign up for six years. Well, I wasn't going to sign up for six years for anything not knowing what it was like. So I decided I would do it for three years. And it was good for me and it got me away from Montgomery and in a safe environment. I was sent to the chemical corps and I was what they call an S.P.P., scientific and professional personnel. And I worked in the chemical lab and if I told you what I did, I’d have to shoot you.
Fink: [[laughter]]
[20:59] Denton: But I don't remember what I did so it doesn’t make any difference. And that's how I met Jim. And he was working in one of the labs with me and I think we're the only two Black people around again.
[21:16] Fink: So Jim was -- [[crosstalk]]
[21:17] Denton: -- in the chemical corps.
[21:19] Fink:-- the man you subsequently married
[21:21] Denton: That’s right.
[21:21] Fink: But he was -- had done chemistry in school, in college?
[21:25] Denton: He had done chemistry. He was, I can say this, that he was at a different level from me because he knew chemistry and they were making the compounds, and I was doing the carbon and hydrogen analysis on these compounds.
[21:44] Fink: I never knew that. This is the first time you’ve ever told me this. Carbon Hydrogen Analysis [[crosstalk]]
[21:49] Denton: I can't tell you what the compounds were because God I don't remember! I swear.
[21:57] Fink: No, I can imagine what they were.
[22:00] Denton: Because they were like all day long. I was doing this, you know, in a centrifuge with these teeny weeny micro on top of it.
[22:10] Fink: Why have you never told me about this? [[laughter]]
[22:14] Denton: I --Sorry Dick Fink
[22:15] Fink: That’s alright Janice. I’ll remember this.
[22:18] Denton: You’re not supposed to know everything about me. [[laughter]] But that’s what I was doing.
[22:24] Fink: And Jim having done Chemistry at --
[22:28] Denton: At Cal Tech
[22:28] Fink: at Cal Tech
[22:29] Denton: He was doing -- they were making up the compounds and then they were sending them up to the micro lab, and there I was doing the carbon and hydrogen analysis on these compounds. And it was really kind of interesting because I had never done anything like this before. And I didn’t wear a uniform. I wore something like a lab, a, it was a dress. It was a neat little dress.
[23:03] Fink: But the time that you were at the army base is 1957? [[crosstalk]]
[23:15] Denton: Must be, I graduated from college from 1951, so let’s say add three years to that for teaching and then I was in the service for three years, and then I came when I got out of -- because Jim was in Oregon for -- had been accepted at the University of Oregon for a masters degree in Mathematics.
[23:48] Fink: How did you find the job at Amherst? I mean, how did that develop?
[23:56] Denton: There were about 5 graduate students on the doctorate level.
[24:03] Fink: Yeah.
[24:04] Denton: And they all went out for a post docs. Dwayne Bailey went to Yale. Then Dwayne Bailey was invited to come to Amherst. And there was this thing about there were no minority faculty at Amherst. Duane says, aha, I know just the person. So he then got them to contact Jim. And so Jim came out here, and Cal Plimpton did everything he could to say “You know, y'all come.”
[24:55] Fink: Yeah.
[24:56] Denton: And so he came back and the interesting thing I did -- I don't know if I ever told anybody about that. But I read every book I could find on Amherst. And a lot of them were outdated because they said Amherst had – didn't have paved streets, that sort of thing.
[25:19] Fink: Sure
[25:19] Denton: I thought, we were coming to the backwoods, well I discovered, we really were coming to the backwoods.
Fink: [[laughter]]
[25:26] Denton: But they did have paved streets! I read every book about Emily Dickinson and this woman Helen Hunt Jackson. I did all of the stuff you know, I mean, I was really ready. I even was able to tell Jean something about the Emily Dickinson saga --
[25:51] Fink: And this would be Jean Mudge who was a writer on Emily Dickinson [[crosstalk]]
[25:54] Denton: -- that she didn't know and she flew to Harvard because they then had the papers and because the Dickinson’s, the sister well they had decided I think I don't know if this is just urban legend but she wanted her husband to come to Amherst and Amherst didn't offer him a professorship. But for some reason Harvard did. So she gave the papers to Harvard. Do you remember that?
[26:32] Fink: I don't remember. I remember just that she left some, some furniture in the Emily Dickinson house but none of the real papers.
[26:40] Denton: Yeah, none of the real papers. Yes, and I can’t remember.
[26:47] Fink: So you then, Jim decided, you all decided to come to Western Massachusetts.
[26:52] Denton: Yes.
[26:54] Fink: The little college on the hill with now paved streets and start a career.
[27:00] Denton: Yes. And we drove up and we had this three year old in the back of a Volvo station wagon, asleep. And we had because she didn't want to leave her friends in Palo Alto. We told her she had read Snowy Day and Make Way For Ducklings.
[27:26] Fink: Ah, yes. Yes.
[27:28] Denton: And we drove up to Merrill Place. And we said, “Wake up, baby. We're here.” And she woke up. And I can see her head today. Looking around. “Where's the snow?”
Fink: [[laughter]]
[27:48] Denton: And this is August! And we said “Well, baby, it doesn't snow right now. You know, it will snow”. And she says “You guys lied to me. You promise you would never lie. And you always told me not to lie. But you lied to me.”
[28:14] Fink: This is three year old
[28:15] Denton: Three year old. And she said, and “I suppose there is no duck boat either!”
Fink: [[laughter]]
[28:23] Denton: So the next Sunday, I went to-- we went to Boston. And I have a picture of me sitting in that cotton picking duck boat because she had made sure that, you know, we had to prove that we were not complete liars. So we did do that. And that, it was fun.
[28:47] Fink: That was welcome to the northeast.
[28:49] Denton: Welcome to Western Massachusetts
[28:54] Fink: Um, came to Amherst in 1964. The great entering class of faculty of ‘64. Bill Ward came as a tenured professor. John Lee Ward. And he---
[29:09] Denton: What about [[??]]
[29:08] Fink: He came, I think, a year afterwards.
[29:14] Denton: I thought he came the same year.
[29:16] Fink: I think he came the year afterwards and Jim Denton, Gordon Levin, who was a Bancroft Prize winner in History. But you came to Amherst with Jenny in tow, a small three year old, not so big, who crazy people gave flowers to. And Jim, who was the first Black professor at Amherst College, and yourself.
[29:44] Denton: Yes, I was the first Black Lady of Amherst.
[29:47] Fink: That's right, there was an organization. How did that work? Tell us about that.
[29:53] Denton: I have to back up a bit and say, talk about the cocktail party that Cal Plimpton had, remember?
[30:05] Fink: [[crosstalk]] Calvin Plimpton was the president of Amherst College for 10 years and was in fact the president who hired Jim, Bill Ward, Gordon Levin and me.
[30:21] Denton: And he would have a cocktail party at the beginning of the year and every other week. [[laugh]] Excuse of having a cocktail party. That was how, in a sense, people gave an excuse for drinking. You know, they would invite people for cocktails. But when we got – we walked in this sea of people that we didn’t know. And the only person we knew were the Baileys. And for some reason, I don’t, I guess they were there, but I really didn’t know. And I guess, Kate and Bob Breusch had come over. Bob Breusch was chairman of the mathematics department had come to the house, so we kind of knew him. But we didnt know a soul and this cocktail party was a must. You had to go to these cocktail parties.
[31:26] Fink: [[laughs]] Old Amherst.
[31:27] Denton: So we go to this cocktail party and someone comes up to me and says, “You must be Mrs. Spencer. Hello” and I’m thinking who the hell is Mrs. Spencer, you know, to myself.
And we walk around the room. I get a scotch and soda which I was drinking at those days. And it was still “Oh, hello. You must be Mrs. Spencer.” Well then it occurred to me in my mind that there was another Black couple in this place, you know. So Jim and I set out to find them. We found them and then they said “Oh you must be Mrs. Spencer!” And we said “You must be Mrs. Denton!” It turned out it was John and Nikki Spencer and that was how we became friends. John was the project engineer for the campus because they had finished the Robert Frost Library, but they had the same architect on the campus for various others in he was an architect, but that was really kind of funny to meet these people because you know, must be another Black person. Then on the social structure of Amherst was the faculty club and which were all men because it was a boy’s school at that time. And the men would once a month I think have a dinner. Right?
[33:32] Fink: I went almost not at all.
[33:34] Denton: Because you were invited to the [[??]], remember? [[laughs]]
[33:37] Fink: That's another story. We could tell that or that will be in my interview.
[33:43] Denton: The men would go off once a month and have a dinner and of course that would leave the wives to do something else. And of course Dottie Foose– am I getting ahead of myself?
[34:03] Fink: No, that’s fine.
[34:04] Denton: Who was the wife of a professor of geology, was really, really Miss Dainty, you know, Proper, Doing Everything Right and I had come from California where nobody was doing anything right, you know, at that time. It was a good thing that I like to dress up or I possibly would have gone barefoot. [[laughs]]
[34:34] Fink: [[laughs]] That would be the day.
[34:35] Denton: But I mean just think about it. Think about it, you know? It was at that time I’d come out of California and Northern California on top of that.
[34:46] Fink: Yes, right. [[laughs]]
[34:38] Denton: So, Dottie Foose would invite us to -- the faculty wives to her house for dessert and cordials, as I remember. Is that how you pronounce that? And I thought to myself “what the hell is a cordial?” And I had to go to the dictionary and look up cordial, you know really, I mean it was not a part of my world at all! So you go to this thing at night while the men are at the uh –
[35:33] Fink: Faculty Club
[35:34] Denton: Faculty Club having dinner and doing all kinds of things over there. And talking about all kinds of things over there. And drinking all kinds of stuff over there. And for some reason Dottie Foose got it mixed up and she invited Dick Fink and it was supposed to be an all women’s thing, you know?
[36:03] Fink: The invitation came to Professor and Mrs. Richard Fink.
[36:10] Denton: So we got there and there was Dick sitting there and he was the only male [[laughs]] in this place.
[36:20] Fink: You got that right. [[laughs]]
[36:24] Denton: And it was really funny because Dick -- I mean, uh Cal and King Turgeon came to tell the ladies of Amherst and to introduce the new ladies of Amherst to the life of Amherst and --
[36:46] Fink: The proper life of Amherst [[cross talk]]
[36:48] Denton: The proper life of Amherst and the jokes they had performed and about, I don't know if you remember this, somebody rolling down the hill
[36:59] Fink: Stark. Stark Naked in the snow.
[37:02] Denton: That's right. In the snow. And I'm thinking about what kind of place have I come to. You know and I'm sitting there thinking about that, drinking a cordial and holding my little thumb up for some tea, you know? Really. Now I’ve come from Northern California. Now you gotta remember that tea and cordial
[37:25] Fink: Had another meaning.
[37:26] Denton: You know, really? So that was -- Dick soon discovered that he was in the wrong place. Did you go to the faculty club that night?
[37:41] Fink: I never, I went prior to this horrific event. I went once to a faculty club dinner and found it to be unengaging and paralytically boring. Because it was the time --
[37:58] Denton: Did you take Rose?
[38:00] Fink: Nah, that was another time. The first woman faculty member at Amherst College was Rose Olver in psychology. And I thought it would be a good idea to go and take her to a faculty club dinner where only men had been.
[38:20] Denton: Because she had not been invited, not invited, but she was faculty [[cross talk]]
[38:32] Fink: So I called her up and said I’m going, you come with me, we’ll both go. Maybe we’ll hate it but we’ll both go. She said fine. We walked down the stairs of the old white mansion where the admissions office is now. And conversation just stopped. And we walked down, conversation stopped, we sat down. It’s like walking into a western bar, all of a sudden conversation stops and then it started up again. I went to two meetings of that incredibly stuffy unmitigatingly boring group. But perhaps not quite so boring as the Ladies of Amherst was.
[39:08] Denton: But then they had the teas once a month also. And so I decided why am I going to these things. I didn’t have a babysitter, and I wasn’t gonna leave my baby with anybody that I didn’t know so I decided to-- that I wouldn’t go. So I told Barbara Ward that I was not going to those things and she told Ruth Plimpton.
[39:51] Fink: The wife of the president.
[39:52] Denton: The wife of the president. So uh, Ruth Plimpton, we’d be living in Merrill Place at the time, decided she would pay me a visit. And at that time this morning, I had taken Jennifer to Miss Strong's kindergarten over there because she had been in school before we came here.
[40:22] Fink: A play group.
[40:22] Denton: Yes. And we had an old television, and you had to bang on it before it started – warmed up, so you could turn it on, and it would take an hour or so before it would heat up. So by then I had left home and had gone to take her to school. When I returned home I found a card. Mrs. Ruth Plimpton is calling.
[40:54] Fink: A calling card.
[40:57] Denton: It was a calling card and I'm thinking Jesus, what is this? [[laughs]] I’ve never had a calling card. So I called Jim and I said, “Jim, I think we better pack up and be ready to move.” I said, “You know, I took Jenny to school, and I left the television set on. And I could hear the television set blaring as I came up the stairs, and then I got this card in the door. And this woman, the wife of the President has been here. But nobody answered” you know? Because I wasn't there. He says, oh, “Janice, don't worry about it. We'll leave anyway, when we get ready. Just call her and acknowledge the fact that you had gotten a card.” So I said -- I called her and I explained to her about the old television set, and she then told me “Well, Barbara Ward tells me that you don't like the ladies of Amherst tea.” And I said, “No. I don’t.” And she says, “Well would you tell me why not?” I says, “Well, the Dean of Faculty, Mildred Porter calls me Mrs. Spencer,
[42:28] Fink: The wife of the dean of the faculty.
[42:29] Denton: Yes. “And I am not Mrs. Spencer. And then several other people called me Mrs. Spencer.” I says “I don't like being called by someone else's name.” So she says, “Janice, would you promise me that you will come to the next faculty meeting?” I said, “Okay.” I mean next tea.
[42:54] Fink: Ladies of Amherst.
[42:55] Denton: So I went. And lord, I’m telling you Milly -- I’m sorry, Mildred Porter, who was a tall woman, floated up to me and says, ”Hello, Mrs. Denton. See, I've called you by your right name.”
[43:24] Fink: [[laughs]] Out the door. [[laughs]] That’s something.
[43:28] Denton: Why should I come to the tea? Then we went around and Anne Bain said “Why you didn’t come to such and such a thing?” And I says, “ Well, I didn't have a babysitter.” She said, “Well dear, you have to get yourself a lil’ ol’ Polish girl.” And I thought these people must be crazy. My aunt had worked hard for me to move to the right side of the tracks, and I'm on the west side of the track, which is supposed to be the good side. But these people are acting crazy. So maybe it's stupid, not crazy, but just stupid.
[44:17] Fink: It's insensitive, is what it is.
[44:19] Denton: I know. But the idea that she would tell me to “get yourself a lil’ ol’ Polish girl.” Isn’t that something?
[44:29] Fink: Yes it is. But it's not surprising given Amherst at the time.
[44:32] Denton: I know, I know that. I know that. But you know, I didn't know that when we came here that that would be the case. Even going to the furniture store because we didn't have any furniture and I had to buy a couch and it was Douglas Couch’s furniture store up there.
[44:57] Fink: Douglas Furniture on Main Street.
[44:58] Denton: Yes. And so I went over there. And I didn't we didn't have any money even and so I wanted to charge it. And he asked me my name. And I told him and he asked me “where did I live?” and I gave him that information. And he says, “well we haven't heard about you people being at Amherst College”, Then he wanted to know what my husband did. And I says, “Well, he's on the faculty in the math department.” And they were like, “Wow,” and of course, they gave us the furniture. It was the same thing in the library. We couldn't get a library card, because we didn't own furniture. I mean, didn’t own property, which a Public Library. You see, most people thought that was a private library over there. But there were all kinds of little things you know that irritated me.
[46:06] Fink: Well, I can remember -- I can remember being with you when Anne Bain accepted her fifth invitation to you. You said “I've met you before.” She said, “Well I don't think we have, dear.” And carried on in that sort of mindless upper class, pretense of upper class existence that really was in full flood here.
[46:35] Denton: It really was. And I think, I don't know if -- you know, we had you guys for friends. And I -- Jim, it was always Jim [[??]] but I needed friends and I thought I had you for life. But you could come to Amherst, and it could be a fate worse than death. Because if you were not a part of that Smith, Yale, Harvard group, you were nothing. And there were people that this really did matter to, Dick Fink.
[47:26] Fink: Yep.
[47:26] Denton: I don't know if you noticed that that much, but it really really [[??]] You know, that's because I've been friends on and on with them. And there were other people that it mattered quite a bit that Amherst was a chilly place. Well, I decided after a while that I really didn't care. You know, it was no more chilly than what I had grown up with. And I didn't expect any more.
[48:03] Fink: But at least where you grew up, there was a community.
[48:06] Denton: That's right.
[48:06] Fink: And here. John and Nikki Spencer,
[48:09] Denton: Were the community.
[48:10] Fink: [[cross talk]] were the community at the beginning.
[48:12] Denton: Forced to be that community. And then after that we met the [[?]].
[48:17] Fink:Yes.
[48:17] Denton: So I had the college community and then I had them. Another [[?]].
[48:29] Fink: When did you begin to work at the library?
[48:34] Denton: Well, I didn't work at the library until we came back from sabbatic leave.
[48:39] Fink: That would have been ‘72?
[48:41] Denton: Or ‘71 or something like that.
[48:45] Fink: So you started to work at the library and what was the -- was it part time?
[48:51] Denton: Part time. I only worked part time.
[48:53] Fink: Who was the librarian then?
[48:55] Denton: Oh god, her name was Louise Addison, I can't think of the librarian over the whole place.
[49:01] Fink: Was it Ted Lauer?
[49:03] Denton: At Amherst?
[49:04] Fink: Yeah.
[49:04] Denton: Yes.
[49:06] Fink: So you came after Newton Felch McKeon?
[49:09] Denton: Yes, right after him.
[49:12] Fink: And with Ted Lauer.
[40:13] Denton: Ted Lauer. And Dick Cody was librarian so to speak, which was really not nice to have happened to Ted Lauer.
[49:25] Fink: Lots of tension in the library.
[49:27] Denton: Because he was not one of the old boys, you understand?
[49:31] Fink: Sure.
[49:31] Denton: And so there was lots of stuff, ugly stuff. Not so nice people do to each other.
[49:41] Fink: Backbiting.
[49:42] Denton: Well I mean, Dick Cody was not a librarian. But yet he got all of the attention. He was invited to this party and he was invited to this. But Ted Lauer was not invited to any of these things. He was treated worse than we were. We weren't treated bad. Don't get me wrong I because I wasn't gonna let it touch me anyways. Right?
[50:18] Fink: Well, so you start in the library, did you start in the Reserve desk? Did you start in special collections?
[50:28] Denton: Remember I started in the Science Library. You forgot that.
[50:35] Fink: I had forgotten that. I apologize.
[50:37] Denton: Yes. Part time.
[50:39] Fink: Yes.
[50:40] Denton: And then I worked there for a year, and then I moved to circulation in the library. Now while I was at the University of Oregon, I went to school for librarianship.
[50:58] Fink: Library science?
[50:59] Denton: Yes, but it was supposed to be a library– school’s librarianship. I was trying to get a degree because I had a degree in elementary education. And but we had to leave before I can finish really four hours short of the degree because Jim got the postdoc, and I we couldn’t stay for me to do that. Then we got down to Palo Alto, didn't know anyone that I could leave Jennifer with. You know, she wouldn't allow me to leave her with anybody.
Fink: [[laughs]]
[51:40] Denton: So that was not with that. You know? I just -- do you know when you decide that something is just that. That was it. I decided I couldn't finish this degree.
[52:00] Fink: Yeah.
[52:00] Denton: So I came to Ted Lauer and we -- there was a place in the Science Library. And I think we found out that Nancy Buck had been over there and for some reason she had messed up the card catalog. So Anne Ely, who can vouch for this, and I had to rip that card catalog apart, and re-do every card because they were not filed correctly. And that was my project. Then I went to the main library, and I stayed there in --
[52:52] Fink: Circulation
[52:53] Denton: Circulation. And then interlibrary loans started becoming more and more and more and more important, you know? And the volume of it, you’d have no idea the volume of books that are sent even to Russia. And I could go to the card catalog -- excuse me -- the computer first thing in the morning and pull up the records. And there would be a request from Moscow. And believe it or not, it would be Tolstoy in English. And I could answer them right then and there “Yes, I have it. And it's on its way.” And that was the beauty of interlibrary loan and it still is the beauty of interlibrary loan.
[53:49] Fink: It's magnificent.
[53:50] Denton: Yeah.
[53:51] Fink: Because it covers, first of all, any library in the state.
[53:56] Denton: Sure.
[53:56] Fink: Plus most academic libraries.
[53:59] Denton: Yes.
[54:00] Fink: Now, one of my reasons for asking about circulation and interlibrary loans, comes back to the question of Black community. Comes back to the question of your being, once again, one of few Black faces in the library. [[crosstalk]] How did– Mort was there– How did the students come to the point of treating you as family and you and you treating them as family?
[54:38] Denton: Well, in the beginning, it was really quite a different thing. There were Black students that I could identify as Black, but you couldn’t identify as Black. And they would pass you and they would look at you like “please don't out me.”
[55:06] Fink: I see.
[55:07] Denton: Okay? And I can give you a couple of names if I could remember. You can go back to the yearbook and you can go through there and the kids look just as white as you do. They passed and they did not want to be identified as Black. But there were several other kids -- Walter [McKeon] who came to the house and sit down in Merrill Place and said welcome us and if he could do anything, you know, he would be glad to do it and I let him babysit with Jennifer and she screamed all the time he was there and he was so nervous. We had gone over to one of those -- remember the frat house you guys were made um --
[56:08] Fink: Oh, we were honorary members, advisors, that’s right.
[56:10] Denton: Yes, advisors of the frat houses.
[56:13] Fink: God.
[56:13] Denton: And you had to go to their cotton pickin -- I’m sorry [[laughs]]
[56:17] Fink: No, you're absolutely right. It was appalling.
[56:20] Denton: cocktail parties.
[56:21] Fink: Thank god that’s changed.
[56:22] Denton: I went to one, and I decided well I’m not going to these. Jim could go. I mean, it was just, I just had to be myself, you know, and that was kind of hard. Because this was the community that -- I don’t wanna preach --
[56:49] Denton: That did not allow or, or have open arms. I had come from a Black community in the South. Southern Black Baptists where it was “y'all come.” And I had gone to the service where they were like “y'all come” for another reason. Then I had gotten out, we’d gone up to Oregon, Jim had gotten an education, a PhD. Not many of us have heard of that. And then we come here, which we were warmly welcome. But we were still not a part of Amherst.
[57:38] Fink: Sure.
[57:39] Denton: Do you -- Am I making myself clear?
[57:42] Fink: You are indeed. You are speaking to the choir.
[57:45] Denton: Okay. And so I decided that what I was going to, oh, what I realized was that I had gone to school, but I did not have an education, okay?
[58:02] Fink: In the sense of the social world?
[58:05] Denton: Of the social world, art, languages or any of that. So I decided that I had this little bright kid and I was gonna make sure that she got an education. Do you --?
[58:24] Fink: Perfectly well. You’re being very clear.
[58:27] Denton: And I really worked hard and I did it myself even though we have [[?]]] today, but I did it, you know? I made sure we travel with the Alumni Association. We went to Rome. I had, oh, when she got up in school, the Latin teacher -- She was having difficulty in Latin and she came home and she says, “Mom, I'm having difficulty in Latin.” So I got my fur hat and went to school. And so I wanted to know what was wrong and so Miss Donnelly said, I said to Miss Donnelly, “Jenny is the only Black kid in your class.” I says, “So you may not yell at her, because that gives the other kids the idea that that's how you treat Black kids.” And she starts crying. She says, “You sayin I'm racist.” Now mind you, I haven't used the word racist at all, she decided that, you know? I was thinking that she was a racist pig, but I didn't say it. And I wasn't gonna be caught using the word racism ever. You've never heard me use that in terms of anybody. So she started crying. And she said, “Mrs. Denton, you said I’m a racist. Well, I hope that you know that my father, my grandfather have been good to the colored people.” [[laughs]] Well, listen, Dick Fink. We were not even called colored people then. We weren't even called negros. We were African Americans, you know? And she was -- well, Jack Heffley almost died when she said this, you know?
[1:00:35] Fink: Jack Heffley was the main principal.
[1:00:38] Denton: Main principal. And [[??]] was the other one who was Black. So that year, three months later, I snatched her out of school and we went to Rome, and we went to Kenya and we went to Israel. And Charlie Morgan told us all about the Sistine Chapel. And Jennifer was right in front because all of them would push her up, you know, to look at it and she would ask questions. And then we came back. And then she came home and said she was having trouble in math. So I go over there. I decided not to. I couldn't go over there by myself, because I didn't know anything about math. And I knew that I would call her all kinds of names, if she embarrassed me. So I dragged Jim from squash court. And I was all dressed up. And we go to [...] and we looked like the -- I don’t know the
[1:01:56] Fink: Odd couple.
[1:01:57] Denton: Really the odd couple, believe me. And we go in there to this teacher and we said “Jennifer says she's having problems.” And the woman goes through her papers and she says “She's doing all right. She's getting a C minus as a final grade.” Well she was in a phase five that was when they were doing the phases which they still are doing. They do a different, sneak it. But we said, “Well, in my mind,” I said, I told her, “a C-minus is flunking.” I says, “if she needs help, you know, why didn't you tell us?” So Jim with his baritone voice said, “Would you show me a problem she's had?” And so some kids were over in the corner and started laughing. Said “Did you hear what she asked him?” Because what she said to Jim was, “Do you know anything about math?” Jim said, “Yes.” So she was trembling going through her papers. And the kids over there were laughing because they have had classes from him at Amherst. She then said to him before she produced these papers, “You do know something about math, don’t you?” He said “Lady, I am chairman of the mathematics department at Amherst College. Now, would you give me examples of every problem that she's had?” Well, I have you to know that Jennifer has not forgiven us for this yet. She had to get off the school bus, march to Williston Hall and Jim made her go through every problem she had had in math. He found out that she was pretty bright in math. But she was lazy, she wouldn't learn the formulas. So when she got to something like pi equals this, she had to stop and think about it and it would take up time. So he made her memorize all of these things. And at the end of the year, the woman gave her an A plus. Well, we didn't need that either. And we didn't need Mrs. Donnelly because I snatched her out of there and put her into Williston.
[1:04:38] Fink: And that, more or less ended your interaction with the public schools.
Denton: Mmhmm.
[1:04:43] Fink: But still, you're working at Amherst, and there were kids two or three years older than she who sought you out in the library.
[1:05:13] Denton: The class of ‘87 --
[1:04:56] Fink: Was back for reunion?
[1:04:57] Denton: Was back for reunion. And they came to my house, pulled me out of my house, and then went to Jean Moss’s house and pulled her over there -- now, isn't that a nice picture?
[1:05:16] Fink: It really is.
[1:05:17] Denton: On the right is where Jennifer was here. And guess what? She maneuvered herself to be next to Jeffrey Wright, the movie star.
[1:05:28] Fink: Yes.
[1:05:29] Denton: And he has his arm around her. Isn’t that cute?
[1:05:32] Fink: He's a wonderful actor.
[1:05:33] Denton: Yes.
[1:05:34] Fink: You're, you remember Alice and I were in Westminster Abbey in London.
[1:05:38] Denton: In London. Yes, yes. [crosstalk]
[1:05:39] Fink: And we're the only people in the chapter house, and there was this mother and son walking around there and looked vaguely familiar. And he comes up and says, “aren't you Dean Fink?”
[1:05:50] Denton: Mmhmm.
[1:05:50] Fink: I said, “Yeah.” He said, “Well, I went to Amherst College.” And then the penny dropped, and I said “you're Jeffrey Wright and your work is terrific.”
[1:06:00] Denton: Yes.
[1:06:01] Fink: He was in London for the opening of Basquiat which is what he was a part of.
[1:06:06] Fink: Jennifer is here and Jeffrey Wright is immediately next to her. This would have been the class of ‘87.
[1:06:15] Denton: ‘87 [[crosstalk]]
[1:06:15] Fink: And fairly recently.
[1:06:18] Denton: This was last month.
[1:06:20] Fink: But how was it that you were connected with them? Why would they have done that?
[1:06:25] Denton: Several of the girls have worked in the library with me. So I had known them. And it was really funny because one of the young women uhhh her name is Sheree
[1:06:43] Fink: White
[1:06:43] Denton: White. Yep. I guess she's right there. Right there.
[1:06:48] Fink: Yes.
[1:06:48] Denton: She was having -- oh god. It's a social organization and it's supposed to be a service organization, but it's a sorority. And it does start in college and it's called Alpha Kappa Alpha. And or AKA. And it's the oldest Black women service organization.
[1:07:21] Fink: Really?
[1:07:22] Denton: And I'm a member of that. Not active, but, I’m a member. I joined thinking that Jennifer might like to join but she swears she's not gonna have anything to do with a sorority. So this young woman had applied to be a member and was on what we call “line,” you know that’s when they were going through probation to be inducted and she had a blonde streak in her hair and had had this streak all along. And the sister insisted that she remove this blonde streak in her hair. And the funny thing about it is that it wasn't a stupid blonde streak, it was a nice -- it really did look nice, you know? I don’t know whether it was blonde or whether it was just red or something
[1:08:31] Fink: But it was an affectation that looked --
[1:08:34] Denton: That’s right. And they insisted that she got rid of that. So when I learned this I called her in and I said, “do you mean to tell me just to join some group, you're going to do something to yourself that you don't want to do, just to please them?” You know? And of course she wasn't strong enough to not do it. She did it.
[1:09:06] Fink: But she's 18 or 19 years old.
[1:09:09] Denton: Yes. But I’ll have you to know, when she was here, she said to me “Mrs. Denton, I want you to know and I, I kind of arranged this day to tell you that you were the first person here that told me not to do something, you know, or that I didn't have to do something. But if you remember, I became involved with the Black students when the sit-in was and they were-- If you remember, the Black students evidently were not getting the attention that they thought they needed so they went into the library and they stole some books. Well when the -uh- while Cal Plimpton was locked out of his office in Converse and what have you, he called, what’s his name, Horace Porter, called first like at 3 o'clock in the morning and I answered the phone. “Mrs. Denton, is Professor Denton there?” and I’m like “where is anybody gonna be in Amherst at 3 o'clock in the morning but at home.” You know? Or if not, he’s really in trouble, you know? Really.
[1:10:45] Fink: [[crosstalk]] Or at somebody else's home.
[1:10:49] Denton: So I got Jim out of bed. So I go back and about 45 minutes later there was another telephone call. I’m not [[??]], am I?
[1:11:02] Fink: No.
[1:11:05] Denton: Oh good. And it was from Cal Plimpton. And he went, “Janice, is Jim at home?” And I was like “well, where else - I could say to him - where else do you think he is?” You know? So he says “May I speak to him?” So Jim got up, went to the telephone, got back in bed and literally covered up his head. And I said, “Jim, what’s going on?” He says, “the students have taken over the campus.” And I says “Well, aren’t you curious to get up and go over there and see what's going on?” He says, “No, I'm not.” And he stayed in the bed. I got up, put [[laughs]] my coat over my pajamas, rolled the Volvo out of the driveway and came over here to see what I can see. I didn't - there wasn’t a soul moving by then, but security.
[1:12:12] Fink: Yes.
[1:12:13] Denton: So I went back and I said, “Well what did Cal want when he called you?” He says that “there's going to be a faculty meeting. The students stole some books from the library.” I don't know if you remember this.
[1:12:29] Fink: Mmhmm. [[affirmative]]
[1:12:30] Denton: And he said, “there's going to be a meeting. And at seven o'clock.” Something like this. So he went to meeting and I went to work someplace. And so when he came back, I says, “Well, what happened?” He says, “Well, the thing about it is that they, the students had presented some demands, but the faculty did not discuss the demands. They discussed the fact that the students had stolen the books from the campus. They were more concerned about the books being back in the library. So, I says “You mean, they didn't discuss --” Now Jim was chairman of the AfroAm society. Okay, or advisor, I guess that’s what it was.
[1:13:27] Fink: Advisor, yeah.
[1:13:28] Denton: So I said “you mean, did you say anything to the students?” And he said, “No.” So I got in my car, drove around here, found the students and gave them a shake by their neck and said, “Take those books back to the library. You're not getting your point across. If you do that, I will go in that library and find out if they -- because the issue was the library did not have any books that was relevant to Black issues of the day. And they were right. I went in the card catalog, and I went card by card by card by card. Do you remember when the card catalog, the big oak cabinet was standing out there in the middle of the floor?
[1:14:29] Fink: Yep.
[1:14:29] Denton: I went card by card and I couldn’t find no books by Leroi Jones possibly didn’t need those. But I could find none by James Baldwin.
[1:14:41] Fink: Was Invisible Man there even?
[1:14:42] Denton: No no.
[1:14:43] Fink: There you are.
[1:14:44] Denton: Not Invisible Man. There were -- it could have been. But really, I went through all of them. I can tell you the three books and I think it was The History of Slavery in the United States. And another one was a book by Dr. Cook.
[1:15:07] Fink: Mercer Cook?
[1:15:09] Denton: Yes. Is it Mercer or? See there were two of them.
[1:15:15] Fink: There were two, yes. [[crosstalk]]
[1:15:16] Denton: But both had Mercer in their names.
[1:15:19] Fink: Yeah, yeah I don’t remember. [[crosstalk]]
[1:15:19] Denton: The older man who graduated in 1929 or something like that with um--
[1:15:26] Fink: [[crosstalk]] A Black man who graduated some 80 years ago.
[1:15:30] Denton: What was the judge?
[1:15:32] Fink: Hastie. Bill Hastie.
Denton: Well, then I need to tell you about that group of black people who came here to Amherst College. So I went out there and I found them and I said, “Why did you take, steal the books?” I says, “They're not discussing your issues.” And their [[laughs]] return to me was “Mrs. Denton, we didn’t steal the books. We took them.” And I says, “Well, what's the difference?” “Well, we're going to return them. But if we stole them it meant that we were gonna keep them, all right?”
[1:16:12] Fink: Ah, all these fine distinctions.
[1:16:14] Denton: That's right. So I said, “ Take the books back and I will help you with anything you had to do about the library.” I went up to the Octagon, I pulled out drawer by drawer. And while I was working at the university, I would file them which no filing had been done. And there were books piled up, because Newton McKeon was not going to put his hands on any Black books. So they were just piled up in Ted Lauer's office, but he had other things to do, you know? And I cataloged the books so that they can get into the circulation. You know, really, when I think about all of this, I should run screaming.
[1:17:12] Fink: Well, but you were an integral part in, first of all, bringing the library in that aspect into the 20th century. And secondly, probably with the demise of the old boy aspect of the library and the librarianship. Will Bridegam was the first outside librarian that the college had. So you had considerable influence I would reckon on--
[1:17:48] Denton: Yes, because I was on the selection committee, which was really nice. And I must tell you, that after that things changed even though Will Bridegam was -- his office was always open and I can float in any time. But there were other people who did not feel that way, that it was open to them and I don’t know what it was about me that I just --
[1:18:24] Fink: Well, you have a way of being able to persuade people and engage them whereas other people there didn’t have the same [[crosstalk]]
[1:18:30] Denton: Well, that’s right. They would sit over and grumble in the corner and then I would go to him and– one of them was about Will’s green jacket.
Fink: [[laughs]]
[1:18:40] Denton: He would kill me, where is he? He’s not in here.
[1:18:42] Fink: I don’t know.
[1:18:43] Denton: I have to tell this! He was married before and she gave him a green I mean, a vile green sports jacket.
[1:18:55] Fink: Like the Masters Tournament jackets which people really want. Not this one.
[1:19:02] Denton: He had the nerve to wear this jacket to the library.
[1:19:08] Fink: You sound like old Amherst now. Have to dress just so.
[1:19:12] Denton: Well no, but he could dress in that green jacket. So nobody else had the nerve to say anything to him, you know about it. So they say “Janice, you’re a faculty wife, why don't you say something. That it's U-G-L-Y.” So I meet him in the -- if you've been in the Robert Frost library, you know there’s a big lobby. And it's different now because there was a card catalog on the left. I meet him in the center of this library floor. He’s going one way and I’m going the other. And I said to him, “Will, you really can't wear that jacket to work.” [[laughs]]
Fink: [[laughs]]
[1:20:06] Denton: And it stopped him in middle of the floor. And he really was in those days Mr. Proper, but it really relaxed him. He says “You don’t like it?” I said, “No, and it doesn’t even look nice on you.” He said, “Mary-Beth bought this jacket, and I have to wear it.” I says “Well you take it out of the house, but just don't wear it in the library.” And it was funny because he and I just started laughing in the middle, because it was really funny episode. You know?
[1:20:48] Fink: And that raises a really interesting question because it comes back to something we've been talking about throughout, chained throughout all this and that is: did you find in this situation relatively unique except perhaps for Lita Bailey, another faculty spouse who worked in library, did you find that there was any difference in the way that you interacted with say Will or with, say, your supervisors because you were a faculty wife?
[1:21:26] Denton: Yes, I did. I noticed that and even though I was not professional staff, I was staff hired or what do you call that?
[1:21:41] Fink: Not trustee appointed.
[1:21:41] Denton: That’s right. It just didn't make any difference, you know, to me, and even the professional staff felt insecure.
[1:21:57] Fink: You were able to be, in a sense, in loco parentis to Black students who came from wherever and needed to have comfort and aid and assistance, and you provided that for them. You also started Black History Month. Hmm, how did that begin? And how did you engage yourself with that?
[1:22:28] Denton: Well, it just seemed that this was such a white college. You know even though they had 150 Black kids here, they just sort of faded into the woodwork. And I started that with Ted Lauer. I would go to the alumni office and ask them to give me a printout of all of the Black graduates who were in science and have continued in science. I would then write to those students, ask them to send me an up to date vitae, any materials that they’d published, and a present picture. And they did it.
[1:23:26] Fink: So that’s how it began.
[1:23:33] Denton: And that’s how it began. But I need -- I can go on and on forever. But there was, you remember that Asa Davis came, and I can't remember the year that he came, but when he came, Bill Ward -- he was hired by Cal Pimpton but after that Bill Ward was here.
Fink: ‘69 or ‘70
[1:24:01] Denton: And the students were outraging about there were no books in the library that are pertinent to them. Well I knew that, but each department was given a sum, a part of the library’s funds to purchase books that they needed, right?
[1:24:30] Fink: Yep. Yes.
[1:24:32] Denton: Asa Davis did not do that. But the books that he assigned his students, he would purchase them himself. And so the students would go into his office and say, “Professor Davis, you know, that library doesn't have the books that we need.” He says “Oh, what do you want?” And would reach over and pulled it from his shelf. Well, I just thought that was awful, you know? And of course I was the only person who could do anything about this, or who wanted to do anything about it. So I marched to Bill Ward, and I told him this thing that was going on. And that I thought that it was awful because Asa Davis had not spent a penny of that money from the time that he arrived in Amherst. Do you understand me?
[1:25:32] Fink: Yes.
[1:25:32] Denton: And was not about to do it. So I learned that there was a fund that a family, a Jewish family, [Parsoners], had given to Amherst, and I don't remember how much money, it wasn't a great deal of money, but I didn't even know that that fund existed until I started being nosy and then Bill Ward had kind of heard something about it and sent me to George May. And I found out that this fund was there along with the fund that Asa Davis got for the Black Studies Department.
[1:26:23] Fink: May I just interject that the statement that Asa Davis was a Black historian who came in about ‘69, I think, something like that and --
[1:26:31] Denton: [[crosstalk]] Yeah, I don't remember. Well, we were on sabattic leave, and he was here when we came back.
[1:26:36] Fink: And he was a very complicated man, I think that's fair to say. And did not necessarily support the Black Studies program with the enthusiasm that he might have shown.
[1:26:55] Denton: No, because neither one of them, like Mavis Campbell.
[1:27:00] Fink: Another Black historian [[crosstalk]]
[1:27:02] Denton: They came here as a part of the Black Studies Department, but they did not want to be considered Black faculty.
[1:27:14] Denton: They wanted to be a Black historian or a Black this or that. Well I got the money. Bill Ward then decided and changed my job description that my part of my job would be to select books for the Black Studies Department. So I -- If Asa Davis didn’t spend the money, I spent the money. Each year, I did that, you know? That was really something.
[1:27:54] Fink: [[crosstalk]] Well probably was a couple of thousand dollars a year.
[1:27:57] Denton: Yes, that was really something that I was that nervy.
[1:28:03] Fink: Well, you've never been shy. [[laughs]]
[1:28:07] Denton: Well, I mean, there was a time and all of a sudden I awoke and I'm in this place. So what do you do? Do you make it successful for you? You have a child, you want her to have an education, not just going to school. And that was when I realized the difference between an education and going to school. You know, we -- I never had any languages at all. I had a little bit of art history, and a little bit of music appreciation.
[1:28:48] Fink: And Jennifer went from her secondary school schooling to Bryn Mawr College. And then from Bryn Mawr College to University of Rochester.
[1:29:01] Denton: And she was still taking Latin when she got there, which is really interesting.
[1:29:05] Fink: And she is today a practicing physician in Boston.
[1:29:09] Denton: Yes. And on the teaching staff of Harvard.
[1:29:14] Fink: And that is the life that evolved for you at the college, mostly through your own doing. Would you say that it was worth it?
[1:29:31] Denton: It was fine. Really. I've had a good life. And I think I'm glad that we came to Amherst because I don't think anyone down Woodside Avenue, at Merrill Place would have allowed anything to happen to Jennifer and that was my major concern. You see? I really don't. And I think-- I don't care whether anybody down there was racist or not. They didn't exhibit it. And she was just one of the crowd.
[1:30:18] Fink: One of the kids.
[1:30:19] Denton: Yes.
[1:30:20] Fink: This is in the faculty residential area of where there are many, many faculty houses. Hitchcock, Woodside, Orchard Street, and Merrill Place.
[1:30:31] Denton: And we lived in these houses for 31 years. And then I got divorced and moved to -- where is it that I live?
[1:30:46] Fink: Out in the woods [[laughs]]
[1:30:49] Denton: Echo Hill. Echo Hill. But no, it's been a good life, Dick. And it’s because I have -- I still have the campus to do things with. I can go to the museum, I go to the concerts as you do. And I have friends that I've had for all of these years. And now that I’ve retired, I really, and I’ve -- I’m getting -- I am old.
Fink: [[laughs]]
[1:31:28] Denton: I just -- and you start thinking about what you're going to do with yourself, and where do you want to go. I don't want to move from Amherst.
[1:31:43] Fink: So you find, at the end of the day, that when you came here as the sole Black faculty member, one of two Black families in 1964 that's 43 years ago, do you find that there's been much change? Not just in the college as you've described, but in one's life.
[1:32:12] Denton: You know, there's the town of Amherst, and then there's Amherst College. And we have lived on this campus for so long. And there is a world out there, but we didn't have any need to go out there. Because everything was there that we needed. Swimming pool, baseball diamond, skating rink. Even the trustees built the little elementary school for our kids to go to nursery school and kindergarten.
[1:32:56] Fink: The only thing that’s missing is a company store. [[laughs]]
[1:32:57] Denton: That’s right. I am now doing something and I'm volunteering three days a week at the senior center. And it is my touch with reality, you know? Really. It really is. I’m there but yet sometimes I feel I don't belong here, you know? Not just because of my age, but why am I over here with these people? And also, they treat me the same way because I was associated with Amherst College. There's always that tag. You'll never get rid of it. You know, I don't care where you go or what you do here in Amherst, and I am not in -- and there is a very very active intellectual, so to speak, community of Black people in Amherst. Dean of Students at UMass, who was the dean at Bryn Mawr believe it or not when Jennifer was there, and there’s a gal who is a chancellor and there are lots of Black people there. And I'm not included in those things. Why? I don't know. And honest to God, I don't care. You know, really, I don't. I don't need it.
[1:34:58] Fink: Yep.
[1:34:58] Denton: So I just don’t care.
[1:35:05] Fink: Thank you very much for doing this. This is really very generous of you to spend the time. Not the easiest thing to do I would imagine. I just sit here and ask you one question after another, but you come up with the answers.
[1:35:20] Denton: We didn't talk about the books.
[1:35:23] Fink: We can, oh, by all means, tell us. You recognize these books, and tell us where they’re from. How did they get here?
[1:35:34] Denton: When I retired, there was a sum of money that was raised. And it was donated in my name to the college, and it became the Janice Denton book fund. And in the books, okay. There is a book plate and there is an antique Nigerian comb on the side. Can you see it?
[1:36:14] Denton: And I designed this book plate myself. And all of the books that -- this fund is an endowed fund. So, any of the books that are purchased from this fund will have this book plate in them and it can go on and on. And when I die, I'm gonna leave all of my worldly goods to that book fund after I leave them to my grandchild, I guess.
[1:36:53] Fink: There you go. At the end of these 3 hours or whatever it is, I hope that you got a sense of the context of this extraordinary woman's life. Coming from where she came and winding up where she wound up all that she went through to me it is not just deeply moving, it affirms a kind of process that can go on in a society that while constricted and constrained in many ways, and Janice is representative of that, still can be transcended. Where someone can come from the wrong side of Bainbridge Street and wind up sitting here in this library.
[1:37:45] Denton: You’ll never forget that.
[1:37:47] Fink: No, I will not. We've known each other for too long.
[1:37:49] Denton: Okay.
[1:37:51] Fink: And wind up sitting here in this lovely little library in Amherst having made a significant mark, not just in the evolution of her life, but in the life of the college. Not just as a faculty spouse, but on her own terms.
[1:38:08] Denton: That’s right.
[1:38:09] Fink: Helping undergraduate students who are Black, helping the college as an institution be more attentive to Black issues. And as we saw at the very completion of our conversation, the enduring quality of a book fund that will continue to buy texts, dealing with subjects that were absent completely from the Amherst collection when she first came. It is an enormous pleasure and with great affection, I hope that was clear from our conversation that we mutually have.
[1:38:52] Denton: Mutual admiration society here going on
[1:38:56] Fink: that we were able to do this today. So thank you very much. It was an enormous pleasure for me.
[Addendum: “Aunt Janice”]
[1:39:08] Denton: We had students that worked with us, you know? And we really got to know those students. I did interlibrary loans, and they would have to go to the shelves, get this book and I stamp it and then they would wrap it and then ship it off. I could come in the morning at 8 o'clock and find that Russia requested Tolstoy. And I would say, at 8:30, I could tell them the book is here and I would have it in the mail. So those students who were on work study, would be there in the library. And I really got to know them because there was always one who worked with me full time, and a funny thing happened with one of them. He had, he was wearing a big hoop in his ear, an earring. And on this hoop was a parrot. And I had this thing that I did to students that I would walk up when they did something crazy. I would walk up and say, “What would your mother say about that?” So I said to him, “what would your mother say about that?” And he said, “Mrs. Denton, she hasn't seen it, and she won't see it.” Well, at commencement, I always go to graduation. And this student was running around all over campus looking for me and when he found me he said “Mrs. Denton, I was gonna come to your house because I had to tell you that. He said, “my mom came, and she wanted to know where was the earring?” And I said, “What earring?” and she says, “you have a hole in your ear, stupid.” [[laughs]] Isn’t that something? And then there were just -- I would have lunch with kids, and I would invite them -- we would invite kids to dinner. This is was a residential campus in the olden days. So students were really a part of your life. And of course I do have lots of white student friends as much as Black student friends. And now their kids are coming back to school and I’m called “Aunt Janice.”
Janice C. Denton came to Amherst in 1964 when her husband accepted a position as a professor in the Mathematics Department at Amherst College. During her tenure, she worked as a Science Library Assistant, Circulation Assistant, and Interlibrary Loan Assistant. Janice had a key role in the development of the Black Cultural Center Library and was instrumental in bringing a major endowed fund to the library for the purchase of books. She was honored with an all-campus reception upon her retirement in 1998.
Richard Fink arrived at Amherst in 1964 and was the George H. Corey Professor of Chemistry before his retirement in 2007. He served as Dean of the Faculty from 1983 to 1988.
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